“I’m not saying you’re self-righteous, mind you, I simply believe that saying you can love someone you’ve never met, and who largely embodies what the world would call “evil” is an attempt at making a statement about yourself (should you be that type of person, that is).”

Be what type of person? Does this mean you think it selfISH, and so cannot do anything but feed the ego and can’t help make the world better (which is what I would want to do), and that to make the world better we need to hate other people or at least be blind to them? How about, instead of Hitler, just some average person you don’t know who may not be particularly evil nor particularly good?

I’m curious: what do _you_ think love means and is about? I’m not sure how to put my understanding of it into words, but I’d like to hear yours.

“Is there a hill you will die on? As Jesus allegedly did? Meaning will I sacrifice myself for the sins of all humanity? I’ll probably not have the opportunity.”

Her question looked like a hypothetical to me. I.e. _if you had_ the opportunity, would you?

A few fallacies that I see in your response:

1. You assume I think emotion is irrational and that rational people feel no emotion. Quite to the contrary, I believe quite strongly that emotion is an integral part of being alive and very much plays a part in the rational world.

2. You equate feeling emotion to believing in a higher power (using Solomon’s emotions about believing in Allah as an example of something we should praise as a standard by which we should hold ourselves to). I assure you that despite being an atheist I am just as emotional as your average religious believer. However, I do not devote myself to my emotional responses. Nor do I live my life by them without question. I understand my emotions are there for a reason, and rationally, I understand why people believe in religion. I just don’t and I don’t think the world benefits from doing so — but fully admit I don’t necessarily know what’s best for the world.

3. You seem to be forwarding the idea that there are truly altruistic acts. I don’t believe there are. One of the things that has allowed us to excel as a species is our ability to utilize our actions in ways more complicated than A->B — and while we’re not the only species that form complex social structures that reward “kindness”, there are few species that have woven it so completely into the fabric of their habits and reaped such comprehensive rewards from it.

To answer your questions:
Caring for others – is it irrational? No, definitely not. Whether it is caring for your family, community or strangers, there are obvious rational benefits to caring.

And if it is, is it a bad thing? Why does it sound like you are saying only the religious care about people?

Where do you draw the line? What line?

Could someone like Jesus love someone like Hitler? Perhaps. He wouldn’t have been the only one. But is your meaning that we should be able to love someone despite their faults, no matter how great those faults are? My belief is that you should not allow your distaste for someone else’s actions negatively affect your own life. If you are consumed by anger, sadness or range by someone’s actions, it is only a detriment to yourself.

Could you or I? I’m not in the habit of loving long-dead mass-murdering asshats. But what I think you’re saying is that we should extend “love” to all people and by doing so you somehow make the world a more joyous place. I think this attitude is a bit self-righteous. I’m not saying you’re self-righteous, mind you, I simply believe that saying you can love someone you’ve never met, and who largely embodies what the world would call “evil” is an attempt at making a statement about yourself (should you be that type of person, that is).

What are you willing to do for your principles? As much as it takes?

Is there a hill you will die on? As Jesus allegedly did? Meaning will I sacrifice myself for the sins of all humanity? I’ll probably not have the opportunity.

As for blindly believing in religion, when I was 19 I despised people who blindly believed anything without reason. I have become much more merciful in my older self. I was raised by a rational, AND non-emotional mother, a cyto-geneticist, and an intellectual father, a teacher, who were too busy to teach me much of anything, but who wanted me to “question authority” and “look it up in the dictionary” and “put brains before beauty” (this from my mother). They are not religious people. They are both very good and rational humanists. They are very much against indoctrination.

But I think it is equally dangerous to try to block emotion as it is to ignore reason – we all have it and it is only rational to examine it, allow it, and embrace it. I don’t want to deify or deny reason or emotion, but recognize that they are both useful. Be careful of extremes.

But I can look at people like Solomon and love them – if you want you could call it irrationality, but for me it is not. I admire him precisely because he stands for something (he called it Truth) without caring about being looked down on. Without the emotion of fear. I think that fear could block or freeze something that transcends emotion or reason, and that would be our peril to ignore.

I think that from experience of my own failings, and how I am still the same person inside whether someone despises me and doesn’t excuse my failings, has taught me that it is “better” to love others over and above my feelings or opinions. To look for something good in all people, and commend them where you can.

And actually, I don’t really think love is just an emotion. Yes, we feel love. But to love someone by doing something for them and not for any self gain is for the sake of reason and not emotion– it is an act of the will. Loving others when you don’t feel love for them. Loving by a principle – because you appreciate others to do good to you and so you do good to others. In that way, it is not an instinct. It is something we can deliberately choose to do – show love to others because we recognize it as a better way to live.

So here are some questions for you: Caring for others – is it irrational? And if it is, is it a bad thing? Where do you draw the line? Could someone like Jesus love someone like Hitler? Could you or I? What are you willing to do for your principles? Is there a hill you will die on?

There’s nothing irrational about a human’s need to believe in something greater than him or herself. The irrationality, by definition, comes when you believe blindly in such things.

Love, joy, peace, hate, envy, greed, etc… these are emotions and are not things we just “know” as if by magic, but things we know as we know how to breath, and how to jump and close our eyes when we hear a loud noise, how we know to sneeze… they are instincts that have helped perpetuate our species through generations upon generations.

You speak of your God as if he touched you without any outside interference, as if that belief was as natural as love or compassion or pain… but it’s not. It’s taught and learned. It’s pushed upon the young and unbelieving, sometimes with great force and coercion. There’s nothing natural or admirable about it.

But I think it was Jesus who commended the little children as being close to heaven. And it will be the little children, and those who are “like them” who know the truth and are set free for their honest admission of it. I think that Solomon is closer to that than any of you, for what it is worth to you. Unfortunately, probably not much. Just had to add my two cents… Nothing here that your “logic” can’t tear apart I’m sure… but I like to think that just because belief can’t be touched by logic, doesn’t mean it doesn’t have its own reasons, that “reason” knows not of…. that is part of a quote from someone…. let’s see… “the heart has it’s reasons that reason knows not of.” don’t remember who said it.

Anyway, there is so much more to us than our brains. Come on, did you ever just “know” something, deep down? Did you ever fall in love? Why? Because of all the “reasons” the person would make a good mate? No, who would be with someone for such base reasons? And what of joy, and peace, and all that? Those aren’t rational, but they exist and I don’t think I could do without them.

I have just read “God is NOT great – How religion poisons everything” by Christopher Hitchens

I recommend it.

Although I have never believed in a god, I did colour in my scripture books in religious class in my public school, and later wanted to fit in and be “saved by Jesus” – until I realised that all being saved by Jesus would do for me is save me from a lot of fun “sinning” that I was more interested it, as I still did not reconcile the existence of a universal greater power or “God” the whole thing seemed a bit pointless.

I am now happily living in this rather non-religious country. I hate religion, and now know why.

I also realised that I should do more to be OUT! I’m already out as Queer, so being out as Atheist should be fun too.

Extra reading – http://www.venganza.org/

“I contend that we are both atheists. I just believe in one fewer god than you do. When you understand why you dismiss all the other possible gods, you will understand why I dismiss yours.” – Stephen F. Roberts

With image here -
http://friendlyatheist.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/02/gods-we-dont-believe-in.jpg

God.Gods.Godess.Godesses.ET.ETS. We are breathing/living/functionning beings adapting to our environments, conditionned by our roots/families/societies/cultures in search of the same ideals (love, happiness, purpose, value, meaning). Some people require/need the help of a spiritual image/leader when they feel lost, WHY NOT?. As long as they are able to break free. You find something helpful? go for it and you must also learn to let go. To each its own. As long as love, respect, decency and common understanding of the laws of Nature are followed. Be good or be bad. It is human nature. It is in all of us. It is a choice we make, day after day. We start out as pure and curious (full of potential) and end up mostly confused and lost in a sea of cruelty/negative vibes/hate/distortions/lies. I keep on swimming, sometimes in circle, sometimes in a straight line or backwards. We all will reach the same destination, enjoy the journey and do as much good, give as much love to offsset the daily grind of lies and manipulations. Open your mind and heart to life. Nature will keep on reminding us of who/what we are…